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You are listening to Women’s Dream Enlightenment. Dream decoding deep discussions and stories of spiritual awakening to inspire your personal enlightened journey. I’m your host, Megan Mary, international bestselling metaphysical author. And founder of Inner Realms Publishing. Let’s bring in the light.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: Welcome. Today we have Julie Clough. She is a spiritual teacher, psychic, medium, and grief specialist whose work is rooted in compassion and lived experience. Her path was profoundly shaped by a spiritually transformative experience following a tragic car accident in 2007, in which her two youngest children crossed from the physical world. [00:01:00] experience awakened an enduring awareness of spiritual presence and ongoing connection beyond death, which continues to guide her work today, Julie is known for her steady heart-centered approach to supporting individuals navigating grief, awakening, and finding purpose. Welcome, Julie.

Julie Cluff: Hi. Thanks for having me.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: Yes, it’s wonderful to have you here today to share your story. And so my first question is going to be, what does enlightenment mean to you?

Julie Cluff: Oh, enlightenment is a journey. It’s a process of becoming more and more aware and allowing ourselves to be spiritually connected. And I say allowing because really we are spiritually connected. It’s just whether or not we’re willing to acknowledge that channel.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: Yes, absolutely. So [00:02:00] we all are of course, but. Some people don’t feel comfortable that,

And some people don’t believe it, and some people do believe it, but they haven’t really had evidence yet,

Get into. Usually there is one of those major experiences that draws a line in the sand.

Everything after that experience is different from before that experience and from the intro, you have one of those experiences

Julie Cluff: Awesome.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: one

Julie Cluff: Yeah,

Megan Mary – MeganMary: to, to share.

Julie Cluff: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, even as a young person, I was pretty spiritually aware, but I was, I was raised in an orthodox kind of Christian family and, which was a wonderful experience, but I allowed religion for a lot of my life to define my spiritual experiences. [00:03:00] But then I lost my brother to suicide when I was in my twenties.

And then a couple years later I went through a divorce from my first husband and I had three small children. I remarried, we, I had three more children, so it was on Mother’s Day in 2007 when I was driving on a road trip with my three youngest children. And having never felt tired that day, I ended up falling asleep at the wheel and totally unexpectedly.

And I woke up and I was in the median between the eastbound and westbound lanes of highway. And we, when I tried to bring my. Vehicle backup on the road. The SUV started rolling and my two youngest children were thrown from the car and subsequently passed away that day. And that was absolutely devastating.

There’s no words to describe that experience, but David was eight, Carrie was [00:04:00] 10. They’re beautiful, wonderful children. I was a homeschool mom. The minute my. Awareness came back to the accident and the I couldn’t see anything for a minute, as soon as I came to and realized what had happened, I just knew our life was changed forever.

But in a real very real sense, the way I look at it now is I was asleep before the accident. I died with them on the day of the accident, and then three years later, I had a pretty profound awakening at that. Point, and like I said before, I was a pretty spiritual person and I had some. Even as a child, the route to and from elementary school often took me past the, I would go, often go the route where I, when I walked past the cemetery, and I would be thinking about those people that were in the cemetery and wondering who they were and what kinda lives they lived, so even as a young child, I was [00:05:00] pretty I was a pretty deep thinker. I was pretty shy actually, as a child. And I had a a. I would say an active spiritual sense, and I, one of the things in my experience was. I often received messages as words in my head, and that was often the way that I received messages.

But then after my kids died, I had some pretty miraculous things happen, even the day of the accident one in which, when the. When the vehicle was rolling, I heard a voice in my head that said, bring your arm in. And later I learned of two people, two women who had lost their arm in a rolled over accident similar to the accident I was in.

So I know that voice saved my arm, but then always the question is, why didn’t that voice saved my children? And, but over time I came to really understand that. [00:06:00] It was part of our soul plan that they would be here for a short period of time. There were so many things that pointed to that, so many messages I received that pointed to that.

But in my humanness, it took me a long time to heal and to integrate this really painful experience. And at the three year mark, I had a remarkable. Unexpected trip to London and ended up on a side trip to Stonehenge. And you might wonder why I bring that up, but it was a, actually, several years later, I learned that Stonehenge is considered the heart chakra of the Earth.

And I feel like that visit to Stonehenge, not that I’m saying everybody has to go to Stonehenge to heal their heart, but. I feel like in a very real sense, my guides brought me there for that extra bit of healing. And then about a week later, a special prayer was [00:07:00] offered for me, and within 24 hours I was a different person.

I, I totally woke up. I had been, by that point in my journey, I had been in a pretty dark place. I was. Filled with consuming darkness. It felt tangible, and that darkness was lifted at that point, and I woke up to a totally different life. I didn’t, at that point, I felt healed to a great degree. I felt like the lights were back on. I could reengage with a life. I could enjoy things again, and it was an overnight change. But I also was left with having to really rebuild my life because my life before the accident and then three years later was totally different. And in that process of rebuilding. I developed a relationship with [00:08:00] Spirit that was much different than it had been previously and over time.

I became much more spiritual and much less religious. And today I say I’m spiritual, not religious. But it became a very real relationship with the spirit and with the angelic realm and with connecting with my children on the other side, and then eventually connecting with other people’s loved ones on the other side, which all of this, all of these spiritual gifts, all of these, all of these things that happened were completely unexpected, and even after I started connecting with my children and then feeling this presence of other people and receiving message for other people, then I eventually had an experience that taught me about the angelic realm, and I began channeling the angelic realm and I was given very specific [00:09:00] instructions to teach about angels.

So there’s a lot of story in between all that, but that’s the overview.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: Wow. How so devastating that it had to have

Julie Cluff: Absolutely.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: I can’t even, I can’t even imagine. And it wasn’t even though that switch happened, you say overnight it was years later

Julie Cluff: It was years later, and I had done a lot of work in those three years. I went to therapy for two and a half years.

Was, I, had to overcome PTSD, I did EMDR therapy. I was. Really putting forth the effort to reengage with life, but it just wasn’t all the dots weren’t connecting.

And then spirit came in and gave me a little extra boost. And I’ve often wondered because later on a few years after that, a couple years after that, I received the message that I was supposed to do something with my story and I thought. I [00:10:00] wasn’t sure like how that would work, because I couldn’t say to people, okay, just go out and have a spiritual experience and be in like, woken up

Megan Mary – MeganMary: like

Julie Cluff: within 24 hours.

And that’s not the way it works a lot of times for people sometimes, and I’ve had experiences where my healing has been slower, incremental, and had this experience where it was an overnight awakening. I feel like one of the reasons, and I received this message while I was writing my first book, but I feel like one of the reasons I had that experience was because I really needed to understand that healing was possible and I really needed to feel it and experience it in this very profound way so that I could be.

And this is just my experience. Everybody else is gonna be different. Everybody doesn’t have to go to Stonehenge to be healed. Everybody doesn’t have to heal overnight. My, my other experiences with grief healing were more incremental and more [00:11:00] just gradual shifts and changes that come along.

That’s part of our healing journey. But for whatever reason in this case, this was part of my life path, was to experience this in a miraculous way. And I think it also tied me to spirit in a really strong way. And so many of my experiences, even the day that the kids died, having that overnight awakening having the experience I had with my daughter just this past September on her birthday, like all these experience were very.

Near death type experiences. And one of those, for example, was, when I was in the hospital after the accident and they’d taken us by ambulance to the hospital and I’m laying there in a cot, with, at that point they were still assessing my injuries, but it, I had minor injuries.

But my, my, [00:12:00] I was physically, emotionally. In shock, as you can imagine, like just profound shock. And if you can just even imagine being in a hospital in an emergency room and all that chaos that’s around. And my son James. Had been sitting in the passenger seat in the front with me, and he had sustained a pretty significant injury to his leg and was going into emergency surgery.

So there was a lot of chaos. But in this process, I was laying in the hospital actually not knowing whether Carrie and David had lived or died because they’d been taken to another hospital and I hadn’t received orders yet that they had passed. But as I laid there in all this chaos, I was the best way I could describe this.

It was like an out-of-body experience where, it was just a presence, this presence of this overwhelming [00:13:00] love and peace and calm, and it was like he was infusing me with all of that, like just bathing me and all that.

And then I would come out of that and be right back in that, emergency room and all the chaos. But I’ll never forget that experience of being, feeling like I was just lifted outta my body into this experience with yah. So there were a lot of things that happened along the way that, messages that were that I was given and experiences that I had that confirmed for me that this was part of my life plan and part of my family’s life plan. As hard as that is to wrap our head around. Yeah.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: Yeah. We don’t often, we can’t make sense of things in the moments or even years later. But if we believe in a divine plan, if we believe in, we don’t [00:14:00] become healers experiencing very deep, darker emotions. And when we find ourselves on the other side of them, if we’re strong enough to make it there, then we get that assignment, like you said, where it’s okay, now you need to stay because you need to help others with. What you just came through

Julie Cluff: Yeah.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: and

Julie Cluff: I had a real, I had a very distinct experience with that part of it, because. When you survive an accident like that where half of the people in the car didn’t survive, you wonder why you’re still here. And there were times when I would just, lay there and think there’s a, especially after my healing experience, I would think about this a lot.

There’s a reason I’m still here. What is that reason? [00:15:00] I’m still here. And then two years after that miraculous healing. I had an experience with this man. I was introduced to by a family member and I. After we talked and this family member asked me to share my story, and I was like, I don’t wanna share that.

I wasn’t as accustomed to sharing it as I am now. And so I shrunk back a little bit from that idea. But I did, I shared, what had happened and I shared about my miraculous healing and so forth. And like I said, this is only, this had only been. Two years after that healing experience.

And as we were leaving, he caught me by my arm and he said, you’re supposed to do something with this. And it was like a lightning bolt When he said that, so there was a very much I felt that.

Presence and I felt that, call, but I didn’t know what it was. So it took me a while to kinda come around and [00:16:00] I’m still figuring out what it was because at, a couple years after that, I started to develop my grief healing program and I developed a grief healing model of healing, and I started teaching other coaches about grief healing.

But in the process of doing that grief work. I’d be, I would be working with clients who had lost a loved one, and I would literally, Megan, I would literally feel their loved one in the room with me and they would be whispering in my ear telling me what their. Person needed to hear, but I didn’t know how to communicate that, so I was just a conduit, but I wasn’t sharing with my client, oh, your son’s here.

Your wife’s here, your dad’s here. I didn’t know how to express that, but invariably when they would come in and they would share these messages with me, and I would use that information to guide the client. Invariably, [00:17:00] it was exactly what they needed. So there was no question that the messages I was receiving was helpful and healing, but I didn’t know how to.

I didn’t know how to communicate that. And it was over time that I began to actually I finally, because the, these experiences were happening more and more unexpectedly, and I thought I’ve gotta, I’ve gotta figure out what this is. So I eventually, I ended up taking. Formal classes and evidential mediumship, because that’s not something you wanna play around with.

I didn’t want to be, Hey, so and so is in the room and this is what they’re saying. I wanted to be able to deliver that message in a way that was helpful and I didn’t wanna cause harm. So I went, I’ve been through, gosh, I think it’s. I think I’m going on three years of training and to do the work that I do.

I [00:18:00] continue to train, I continue to strengthen that channel. So that I can bring forward these messages. And then I also a few years ago I was on a first of all, I’m a very left brain person. Math was my favorite subject. Algebra was my favorite subject by far. I actually bought an algebra book one time at a bookstore.

That’s really, pretty crazy. Most people would just run if they saw an algebra book, but I actually bought one. I thought, this is cool. This is an an antique algebra book. But anyway, I had this very left brain and I’d heard other people talking about like signs that they would receive from loved ones and things.

But in my brain I was like, ah, you know that, I don’t know. I need proof and I need that left brain to come in there and say. Eventually, and I learned later, my daughter was definitely involved in this. She’s come through pretty [00:19:00] clearly, and when she comes through to me, she comes through as a very mature spirit, not as a 10-year-old.

She visits me as a very mature, almost an angelic being when she communicates with me. But I did learn that she was part of this process, but. I started seeing twelves everywhere, and my birthday is on the 12th of May. So this accident happened on the 13th. It happened on my birthday weekend, on Mother’s Day.

So that weekend there was a lot going on, and a lot of anchors to that weekend, my birthday, mother’s Day, and of course the death of my children. And so it was a lot. But I started seeing twelves everywhere. I just, I could not dismiss it any longer. Like it was just too much. It was every time I looked at the clock, every time I looked at the GPS, every time I looked at a sign there was a 12.

And I thought, okay, I get it. I started looking up, what’s the angel number, meaning of, [00:20:00] the number 12 and. That’s what kind of woke me up to the idea that our angels, our spirit guides, are trying to, our loved ones are trying to communicate with us. They do use symbols and signs and various things to get through to us.

And that became very clear to me. Then I was on a whale watching trip a few years ago in Mexico and we weren’t seeing, it was pretty miserable. It was the middle of the afternoon, we weren’t seeing anything. The boat we were on was really uncomfortable. I was grumpy. I was like, ah, this is gonna be a dud.

I was disappointed. So it was the first time going on a whale watching trip and then all of a sudden I heard them whisper in my ear, Julie, you have angels. And when I heard that, like my whole energy shifted in that moment, I like my vibration. Increase my, the frequency increase. I just, I felt their presence.

I felt that confirmation of their presence [00:21:00] and in my mind I started saying like a mantra. Thank you angels for bringing the whales close to our boat. Thank you angels for bringing the boat close to the whales. And I was just saying this in my mind over and within a few minutes we were surrounded by whales.

We had whales on the left. We had whales on the right. We had whales off to the front, right? And then a whole pot of dolphins came swimming along and they were all dancing in the water. It was, I wish, I just wish there was some way to like. Share the feeling that I had in that moment. It was, again, almost like an out-of-body experience and the bliss, just the complete joy and bliss.

And it was amazing. And I don’t even know how long it lasted because before I knew it, our excursion guide said It is time to go back. You guys have amazing energy. This has been. Amazing. This has been incredible, but we’ve gotta get back. We’ve been out, and we’ve gotta get back. [00:22:00] And when he said that, all the whales started to drift away and then the one whale came up, put his tail out of the water and started slapping the water.

Like they do, like a wave goodbye like 10 times just doing this. And it was amazing. And it was the next day. It was the next day that I heard the message start Julie start teaching about angels. And so I came home from that trip and started teaching about angels, and I’ve been receiving channeled messages from the angelic realm for several years now.

They started giving me messages to share with, with. Anybody would listen with my audience, with the people who would listen. And I do that on Instagram and Facebook and YouTube. I started doing YouTube videos about it, so it’s been pretty remarkable.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: That, that’s amazing. And I’ve had some [00:23:00] amazing experiences out in the ocean too,

Julie Cluff: Yeah.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: but I’ve also had the ones where I’m just sitting in, in this room and I have that. Just intense out of body and also very physical experience where you know that you’re that there’s all kinds of beings around, and that you’re really being the receptacle of that, I don’t wanna say information, but it’s

Julie Cluff: Yeah.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: that vibration.

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Julie Cluff: It’s.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: wanna talk about a couple things. One is [00:25:00] your healing model, but I also want to talk about evidential mediumship because I’ve had a number of people that are psychic mediums on the show, but not necessarily evidential. And I want for the audience’s benefit to explain the difference.

Julie Cluff: Yeah, so evidential mediumship is it’s one thing for me to say, I have your grandma here and she says she loves you and, or whatever messages are coming through. It’s another thing to say, I. I have a woman here, she feels like your grandma. She’s showing me how like baking was really important for her.

She would invite the whole family, and you get this, like you start to describe their personality. Like I a lot of times I will get physical features, so I’ll receive physical features like one I did just a couple days ago where. Father came through and I saw this man in his forties, and I said to the woman, I said, you would understand that in his forties he still had a full head of dark hair.

And she said, [00:26:00] yeah, he kept his dark hair for a long time. And then like his personality comes through and a lot of times I’ll receive actually, like how they died, what the last days of their life was like, what the interaction was with the person that I’m reading for, like what was their relationship like, because a parent particularly. I had this one woman whose mom came through and she, and I said, your mom is showing me that she lived with you towards the end of her life, but I feel like you weren’t just helping her. She was helping you. There was something going on. She was. And you, it was a reciprocal relationship.

And she said yes. And I said, she’s also showing me your two boys. I said, you would understand you have two sons. And she says, yes. And I said, she’s showing me how they would come home from school and they would come directly to her room to say hi to grandma before they did anything else and how much she loved that.

Like she loved that they were so dotting on [00:27:00] her. So you get this feel of the relationship and. And what they did different periods of their life, and every. Just like people here, every person on the other side comes through and sometimes they don’t wanna go into how they died, i’m like for whatever reason, they’re just like, they’re here at 40 and they don’t wanna go to beyond that. So we’re just gonna stick with where they’re at. But I’ll sense things, I’ll feel, I’ll feel things I’ll hear things, I’ll see things, I’ll know things sometimes.

Just information will just drop in. I like a mom that came through and I said I feel like she really had she had some connection to the school and her daughter said, yeah, she was an educator for 30 years. And I said, yeah, because some of the anyway, it’s just fascinating. But what it does is it.

We want to establish who’s here. [00:28:00] And we don’t wanna leave any doubt in our mind who we’re communicating with, and that’s why they come through with evidence. But one of the reasons I call myself a spiritual medium is because I’m very focused on the messages and I’m the messages are so important and when they come through and they show how.

I’ll get a sense of you were there with her every day, like she was in the hospital towards the end. You would understand that. And she was in and out of a a not a coma, but, in and out of presence or in and out of consciousness and.

They’ll say yes. And I say, and she’s showing me how you were there for her, you were there for her all along, and she’s so appreciative you were there when she was experiencing that. So the messages are super, super important and I never know exactly what messages are going to come through, but we anchor those messages with evidence.

So we [00:29:00] know who we’re talking to and and we can better understand the messages. I remember one where mom came through and she gave this message to her daughter and I said, I don’t really, and I don’t even remember what the message was now, ’cause I’m almost in a little bit of an altered.

State when I’m doing that. So sometimes it’s hard for me to remember exactly what happened, but there’s certain things that will stand out. But in this case, I just remember there was a message that the bomb gave and I said, I really, I don’t really understand this message, but I’m just gonna share what I’m.

Hearing and then right after the mom shared this message, this other man came through that had been this woman’s partner and the circumstances of his life and their life together came through and all of a sudden the message that the mom gave. Not only made sense to the daughter, ’cause the daughter said she, she understood the message, but then all of a sudden that made sense to me too because now the partner’s coming through and I’m getting more context to the story [00:30:00] because it’s like I say, like I am, it’s almost like I’m standing in a doorway.

Yeah. And you’re on one side, in one room, and they’re on the other, in the other room, and you know them, but I don’t, so I’m just trying to give enough evidence and description. And sometimes I’ll describe things wrong and it can, so every piece of evidence may not feel, but 80 to 90% is gonna be spot on, so you know who’s there.

But sometimes I might interpret things wrong because. I don’t know them. I’m like, just, I’m a reporter, so I’m reporting and then I’m making that connection. So it’s a lot. I just, I really love the work, but I also it’s a lot of responsibility and I take that responsibility very seriously.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: Yeah. And I also wanna touch on the difference or the differentiation I wanna say between spiritual and religious. ’cause you brought that up earlier, and I know that you have a religious upbringing, but that you also help people with religious [00:31:00] trauma. And I very much state that this podcast is. Spiritual but not religious. And for me, there is a very big difference. Also because I had a religious upbringing that I was not necessarily aligned with at all. And so I wanted you to talk a little bit about that and the trauma that people how people come overcome that and they basically, it changes their view when they shift from the dogma to the spiritual viewpoint.

Julie Cluff: Yeah, that’s a, it’s a really big question. It’s a really important question and I think, especially when we’re, and we’re brought up in a certain. System or in a certain dogma, like we take that on as truth and that’s okay. That’s, that was part of our experience. It’s part of our life plan to experience that.

But then we come to a point in our life where it’s this was what happened for me [00:32:00] particularly, you come to a point where you’re like, wait a second, I’m having all these spiritual experiences and I’m communicating with the other side. And what I’m receiving isn’t aligned with what I’m hearing over the pulpit.

And you start having to make a decision like, am I going to, because I had allowed religion to define my spiritual experiences for most of my life, especially up until my kids passed away and after they passed away and I started having this. Like real, almost physical experience with the other side.

I, I the dogma was making less and less sense, and for a long time I was able to walk that line, but it, there came a point where I was like, okay, I’ve gotta [00:33:00] choose am I gonna. Am I going to trust my instincts here and what I’m receiving from Spirit, which is so powerful? Or am I going to align myself with religion, which in a lot of cases can turn off our spiritual gifts if we continue to align with something that’s no longer feeling?

Lined up for us. Okay. So that is, it’s a really challenging situation because if, especially if you have family members, if you have friends that are still within that religion, some religions are more, forgiving. And when I say forgiving, they’re like, oh, you wanna go to a different church?

Go to a different church. Some people are brought up that way they just go to different churches. They choose one that works for them. And then within some family systems it’s no, this is the church of your ancestors. [00:34:00] This is the church of your family. This is the true religion.

And it’s amazing, the huge. Percentage of people who are born into a religion and feel like that’s the true religion. And so it’s when we start to deconstruct that, it can really mess with our mind. And I like to, first of all, bring everybody to. Dr. Kler Ross’s, Elizabeth Cooper Ross’s five stages of grief where she talks about denial and depression and anger, and some of these emotional experiences that we have in grief because leaving a religion, especially religion, that’s high control.

High demand, which was the religion of my upbringing. Leaving a religion is very much a grief experience, and it’s very [00:35:00] much a disenfranchised grief, which means that people are not going to acknowledge that grief and pain there. There. It’s when we when we have a very strong religious background or religious identity, it is an identity.

And you’re butting up against other people’s identities when you say, I’m no longer aligned with this. So they don’t have the capacity to hold space for your pain and your grief of leaving. So that can be it. It just is very messy. So we have to give ourselves so much grace. We have to give other people so much grace.

We have to find support. Our support always needs to be at least equal or greater than our challenge. And when you’re going through something like re [00:36:00] establishing your identity or rethinking your identity. That’s a time when you need to find support, and it’s finding people that can appreciate what you’re going through.

Maybe there are just a few steps ahead of you. Maybe they left the same religion that you did two years before or three years before. So they’re in a unique position where they have gone through some processing of it, where they can hold space for you as you process, and then you’ll have the opportunity to do that for someone.

Behind you. But it’s a pretty big question and I often think of it similar to going through a divorce. Having been through a divorce. You are very literally finding a new community. You are leaving one community. When you divorce, you are leaving. The community of your spouse and their family and that whole [00:37:00] system that you built as a couple, you’re di disentangling yourself from that whole system you built as a couple.

And that’s why I often say like leaving religion is very similar to that because you’re disentangling from a system. And there’s so many aspects of it because it affects your identity, it affects your community, and it affects your belief system. But I also invite people to not be too quick to dismiss the spiritual experiences they had within that religious.

Community because those experiences are still valid. This is like when I’m was co, would coach people who had gone through divorce. The experiences that you had when that marriage was good is still valid. The reasons that you married your spouse are still [00:38:00] valid. That love that you felt that first, getting married, the first child, all, your first home, all of that is still valid.

The fact that you’ve decided to decouple the fact that you’ve decided to separate and create separate lives does not discount the experiences that you had in that marriage. And it’s the same with religion. We. What I’ve come to discover or what I’ve come to understand from my own perspective is that spirit, God, our guides, angels, universe, creator, how whatever terminology you wanna put on it is always loving and supporting us, and so they’re gonna love us and support us.

Even if we’re practicing a religion that maybe doesn’t hold the whole truth, there’s still, there’s truth within every system, [00:39:00] and it’s not discounting the experiences you had there, but being able to integrate that into the into your new life as you move forward.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: Yes. It’s that empowerment of understanding that yeah it’s a part of the truth. It’s a threat of the truth, but that the true truth is that you can get there too.

Julie Cluff: Yeah.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: the systems are meant to say you have to go through us. For me, that’s the biggest difference because once you do experience something that profound, physically, spiritually, emotionally, you’re like, look, I know and I don’t need an in an inter a person in the middle.

Julie Cluff: I don’t need an interpreter anymore. I don’t need a, yeah.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: Yeah. And I and you also don’t feel like you have to do these certain doctrine, things to be worthy of it

Julie Cluff: [00:40:00] Yeah. Yeah.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: which is the biggest thing.

Julie Cluff: is a big piece. I met a man, I was flying out of Nashville. And a few years ago, and a man sat next to me and we were flying cross country. It was like a three hour trip and the whole trip he was talking, we talked to the Bible like the whole trip. It was a fascinating conversation.

I wish I had a transcript of that conversation. But he was a man who had been, who had dealt with drug addiction and had found God in a religion and it changed his life. And yet. He was very much in this fear-based place, but that was just a part of his development. And so every time he would say, but what about the rules or what about the commandments, or what I’d say yes.

And what about love? And I would just bring it right back to love again. And I did, he was just a beautiful, wonderful man. And we never talked specific [00:41:00] religion. And I could see that he was moving through this transformation from like really hard stuff.

And. Church and God and all of that had helped him tremendously and lifted him out of that. And then he was in this space of, it’s like a child developing. I always look at what are they like 8, 9, 10 years old when they get very legalistic and they’re drive. You’re driving down the road and they’re in the backseat going, aren’t you going a little fast?

Shouldn’t you slow down that says 30, you’re going 35, is that legalistic kind of development stage? And we go through that as human beings, we go through these kinda legalistic stages. And if you start studying the stages of faith, there’s very much like a lot of people end up. Developing in into that legalistic phase [00:42:00] where the church is very aligned for them and very supportive of them and I look at my own life and my dad came from really hard circumstances and I’m grateful.

For the upbringing that I had because it was hands above what he experienced as a child. So thank you to the church for giving us that kind of foundation and structure to build a different life that I’ve been now able to pass on to my children a different life than what my dad experienced. And we just see that like we’re all just in different stages, and the thing that I love about being spiritual and not religious is I just have such a deep love for people and a deep understanding that everybody is exactly where they’re supposed to be and I don’t need to worry about it. I don’t have to talk somebody into [00:43:00] believing the way I do or talk them outta believing something.

They believe everybody is just on their own journey and this is what we’re meant to do. We’re not meant to all show up here and everybody be a policeman. That would be like, we’re meant to come in and have all these different experiences. It’s pretty wild when you start thinking about it. All the millions and billions of people that have lived on the earth and every single person has had a different experience and has a different life plan.

It’s remarkable. It is just I can’t wrap my head around it.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: Yes, but at the end of the day, we all breathe the same air. We all

Julie Cluff: Yep.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: blood running through our veins. We’re all going through the same

Julie Cluff: Yep.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: And so it does take some, it does take compassion to understand, and I think that’s one of the hardest parts of recognizing different. I don’t wanna say realities is that, [00:44:00] you have to that not everybody’s gonna accept it. And you also have to recognize that everyone’s at a different path in their

Julie Cluff: Yeah.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: And that doesn’t. It, people have been creating wars for centuries over religion. That one is right and one is wrong. And I think that the direction that we’re going as a civilization is to recognize that is an infighting game

Julie Cluff: Yeah.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: that it’s much, larger than any one doctrine, any one dogma. And that these avatars that we’re in and the land that we’re on are just pieces of small pieces of the larger puzzle.

Julie Cluff: Absolutely. Yeah. And there’s just so much freedom. There’s just so much freedom and just exploring and feeling free to explore spirituality and let it. [00:45:00] Take you in whatever direction feels aligned for you. And if you come across something or you’re reading something or you’re listening to me and say, that doesn’t resonate with me, great.

It doesn’t resonate. And you move to the next thing and you just follow the breadcrumbs of the things that resonate. And pretty soon, the whole world opens up for you. And we don’t all have to believe the same thing. And the beauty is in allowing everybody to believe what they believe and not have to feel like we have to shove a belief down somebody’s throat or fight a war in order for people to believe the way we do.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: Thank you so much for sharing your story today. It was a very personal experience that you went through and thing that happened as a result. Where can people find you if they want to find out more about the services that you offer and the mediumship and the healing and the grief.[00:46:00]

Julie Cluff: Yeah, so julie cluff.com. Pretty simple. It’s just my name, julie clt.com, and I share messages on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, so you can find me in all those places. But yeah, all the links are there at juliecluff.com.

Megan Mary – MeganMary: Great. I will make sure they’re in the show notes so that everybody can go and check you out as well. So thank you so much for being here today, Julia. I really appreciate it.

Julie Cluff: Thank you.

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